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I love SS ships, DON'T remove them!

21 (25.6%)

Meh, I don't mind them but I don't love them either

20 (24.4%)

IMBALENCED! Remove them!

41 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 82

[Forest]Myk]

I feel at a point somebody should bring up in real life you couldn't beat a large number of 1st Rate Ship-of-the-Lines with frigates.

A ship-of-the-line was a type of naval warship constructed from the 17th century through the mid-19th century, to take part in the naval tactic known as the line of battle, in which two columns of opposing warships would maneuver to bring the greatest weight of broadside guns to bear. Since these engagements were almost invariably won by the heaviest ships carrying the most powerful guns, the natural progression was to build sailing vessels that were the largest and most powerful of their time.

That basically describes the SS.

[Deimosfobos]

But this is a game... not real life, is meant to be fun, everything else is just details.

Also, in real life, those ships couldn't bombard armies near the middle of Australia like SS can, in real life those ships couldn't take almost single-handily 70% of the land, in real life, there were port fortresses capable of sinking many of them on an assault... should I continue?

Is ok SS are great on sea, a force to respect and fear, but is not ok they are great on absolutely everything, that they overshadow anything else in classic.

[Ninja-DEN]

Here's a fairer and strong ideal to follow:

SS Should be the frontal ships in open sea warfare. They have to be monsterous in the sea but they shouldn't have much of an effect on land. SS should be to defend or attack ports, prevent landings, provide minor land support. Hell at best the SS should 100 range on land. Also the ship must be easy to kill via land or lower cost ships.

What it is like now:

SS are frontier ships that move around and capture ports, take out chokepoints, wreck armies. It takes a fleet of SS to kill SS fleet.

Anyone wanna find the difference? It is so hard to tell

[Fallen-God]

A lot of people seem to think that the only way of combating SS is with more SS. Before I tackle this point specifically, I am just going to say that if you micro well and use a few tips and tricks, you can defeat 4 SS with your 3, and the like.

Therefore, if someone builds a fleet of SS ships, one of the follow has to be true:
a) He built a fleet, but you have more gold and so you can rape him.
b) You have about same gold, you can now choose whether to out-micro him on the sea - or maybe attack him on land.
c) He has slightly more SS, you have to use said tips and tricks to beat him, or maybe a ground attack might work
d) He has way too many ships, and if he is that much richer he would have killed you no matter what.

I can see the objection to SS, and I might not oppose them being given ~50 less range that riflemen, so they can fire back properly. But, and this is not directed at you Ninja, I have no respect for the many who claim SS is no skill.
If SS is no skill then why do I have 25-2 or something, one of them being a disconnect? Others have legitimate stats around or some exceeding mine in terms of Win/Loss. Is this because we get exceptional luck ever game? Or do SS have some skill after all?

[CauseofDeath]

It's not that using SS does not take skill.. it does.. or can. It's obvious you are skilled in using SS Fallen-God. But that doesn't mean there aren't 100 noobs for every 1 of you out there who aren't using the skill of SS, they just mass them and if they happen to outspend even the pros, they win.

It just totally changes the type of game. It changes how spend their money, promotes more cautious (im my opinion, less fun) types of games. I think a few SSes here and there are very useful and balanced so maybe I would support SS if it limited every player to say 3 SS ships.

[Ninja-DEN]

It's not that using SS does not take skill.. it does.. or can. Agreed It's obvious you are skilled in using SS Fallen-God. But that doesn't mean there aren't 100 noobs for every 1 of you out there who aren't using the skill of SS, they just mass them and if they happen to outspend even the pros, they win.

It just totally changes the type of game. Agreed It changes how spend their money, promotes more cautious (im my opinion, less fun) types of games. I think a few SSes here and there are very useful and balanced so maybe I would support SS if it limited every player to say 3 SS ships. (Plausible)

Fallen you missed my point. You just said it takes SS to Kill SS That what I said.

Using lower cost gold ships and micro'ing doesn't work against massed. I can 3SS v 4SS too on occasion but I can't do jack with lower cost ships. The 30? I can make 10 and attack 10 SS. Those ten SS do enough combined damage to critically damage one A. My ten A's take roughly a quarter off a SS maybe more.

I keep trading hits and even if I float around, Micro take pot shots. Those SS can still chase me down, divide them into groups that can do massive damage to my fleet. The splash + combined damages wreaks havoc.

In the end I'll put 300 gold down the drain, and the guy will lose half his fleet at best.
I am ignoring Straight Line Depreciation of Damage.

(This is mostly estimate but I'll test this out in game at one point)

[me1k0r]

Hi guys 

I dont like SS ships, but i agree that u need skill to use them correctly and effective.But the more massed are the SS the less the skill and the more the numbers,for example 10 SS have no hope against 20 SS( expcept if u deal with a noob). So i think i would be best to set a limit for the SS than a player can spawn in each games, for example the limit can be 10 ships and then ppl who got the money to spawn 10 SS can fight equally, while its easier for small countries to find ways to defend with navy or army. IMO With that factor added, both sides those favor to SS and those against them can be satisfied.

[Lt_Avata]

We all see your point im sure, but then the ss war would be infinite between 2 or 3 or even 4 players. Just keep spamming ss every time you lose one of your 10. It cant be a small number like that, but a larger number like 24 or 36 would be acceptable i think.

[Ninja-DEN]

We all see your point im sure, but then the ss war would be infinite between 2 or 3 or even 4 players. Just keep spamming ss every time you lose one of your 10. It cant be a small number like that, but a larger number like 24 or 36 would be acceptable i think.

First off, I was halfway going to smite thee Avata. 36? 36?!?!? Have you even had to defend against 36? I have with 30 income with 200 in the bank. The thing about risk is that There is ALWAYS ways to make your situation better. Sure I can attack by land I won't gain much if he takes every port. I get no bonus if 1 territory is missing.

5-6 SS? Vs 20+? That isn't half fair. Even then SS aren't made in huge masses of 24 or 36. 36 is the highest i've seen. Pros can make do with just a small fleet.

Ten is reasonable. How do you even kill 36 SS without having to use 1400 gold.

[Yun.]

I dont get why SS should be nerfed in any way.

The only thing you can possibly do is decreasing the range of every boats.

SS is the only way to make a game shorter. Its the only way to really bring down an enemy. How can you crush an enemy that have the same income than you in Transport Only mode ? You can't (if he has the same skills).

Limit the number of SS ? OMG XD Why dont limit the number of riflemen ? You think its stupid ? I have the same opinion concerning SS limit. SS is just a better ship than others. If they remove or limit the SS ships, will we have the same debate concerning S ships ?

I dont know what's the real problem with ss ships. Just the fact that they cost 40g so only big income can use them ? It's the same problem with high cost units...

[Lt_Avata]

We all see your point im sure, but then the ss war would be infinite between 2 or 3 or even 4 players. Just keep spamming ss every time you lose one of your 10. It cant be a small number like that, but a larger number like 24 or 36 would be acceptable i think.

First off, I was halfway going to smite thee Avata. 36? 36?!?!? Have you even had to defend against 36? I have with 30 income with 200 in the bank. The thing about risk is that There is ALWAYS ways to make your situation better. Sure I can attack by land I won't gain much if he takes every port. I get no bonus if 1 territory is missing.

5-6 SS? Vs 20+? That isn't half fair. Even then SS aren't made in huge masses of 24 or 36. 36 is the highest i've seen. Pros can make do with just a small fleet.

Ten is reasonable. How do you even kill 36 SS without having to use 1400 gold.

Ok if you haven't seen much more than 34 SS then you haven't played many classic games. I have seen games where multiple players have 2 or 3 fleets of SS, with gold to spare. For those that don't know. A fleet is 12 ships. Thats 480 gold. So every game, when the last 3 or 4 players save up to a grand before they fight someone.... a cap of 10 ships would be an infinite fight. Therefore IF THERE was to be a cap, then it woul dhave to be a larger number like 24, or 36. I have seen games where ss fleets can add up to 50 or 60 ships. THAT is rediculous.

[me1k0r]

We all see your point im sure, but then the ss war would be infinite between 2 or 3 or even 4 players. Just keep spamming ss every time you lose one of your 10.

The player that lost 1st naval fight has to spend gold for ships, while the other player can spend that gold for a land attack and mark that the new SS will not be immediatly in the battleground always, that makes very crucial the 1st fight. BTW the number of 10 ships is just for example. Anyway i dont see another way in classic mode to make it possible to beat a richer player in sea without getting owned by his mass SS.

[Ninja-DEN]

I play Classic AND Transport. So I DO have my basis. And in classic games it barely hits 24. Are you telling me people are sitting around long enough to get the 1400 gold? that's 30+ turns on a One Continent income.

I play Transport mode, you know the average? less than 50 turns average. Most of the time the only reason it last so long is because we like to talk. Other wise everyone lands troops to their hearts content in places to take territories. O' look perpetual war.

[george123]

It's clear that everyone except for members of LCR, and forestmyk do NOT like SS. I played 20 games over the past week. I'd say 17 out of 20 of them were transport games.

Psyco... the only people that want SS are those of LCR and forestmyk. If you want proof that the majority of the community does NOT like SS ships and think they need to be nerfed, just look at the game logs, as well as the people who aren't LCR or forestmyk (mostly everyone on the forum). If you want your game to have the continued success that it has been enjoying, you need to do something about SS ships, preferably significantly lowering its power, or getting rid of it altogether.

BTW, you should look into the Galaxy Editor for Starcraft 2. You'll have my support.

[CauseofDeath]

Agreed george.

And noobs are tricked into SS because Classic mode sounds like normal risk. In the future version "transports only" or no ships at all should be "Classic" imo.