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I love SS ships, DON'T remove them!

21 (25.6%)

Meh, I don't mind them but I don't love them either

20 (24.4%)

IMBALENCED! Remove them!

41 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 82

[Fallen-God]

Would be nice to get a proper debate going on SS ships.

I will, unlike other discussions, be moderating this topic heavily so please only make well reasoned and sensible arguments.
Any short and offhand replies will get deleted, etc.

For the record, SS are not going to be removed any time soon.
I love them. The high-rankers love them. More importantly: Psyco loves them.
But who knows, maybe a very well reasoned series of arguments might have some sway

[neechi]

First I'ld like to say I like the map, the ranked system and the community around it.
Like everything made by humans it has its flaws and opinions differ.

What is the context of the question?

Of course a player likes BS-SS if he got a fleet of it (12+).
Of course other players don't like BS-SS when they have to counter-act it.

Why was the BS-SS implemented? Why are the other ships not used?
In most games I see nobody builds the Gold-5 ship. Sometimes the Gold-10 and up, but the Gold-5 ship is very weak.

A BS-SS costs 40 gold to build. With the same gold 8 x Gold-5 can be build, or 4 x Gold-10 ships, but I have not seen so far that either groups are able to kill 1 BS-SS. (the BS-SS often just runs away)
At Sea, there are Ports, but BS-SS can easily take the damage from the Ports.
Then again, there are no Ports in the middle of the Ocean's.

What options are there to kill a BS-SS fleet? Another BS-SS fleet. There's no other option.
There is no other option to counter a BS-SS fleet. That is, in my opinion the flaw.
Even Tanks do not do enough damage to a BS-SS, not from range, not close-up.

Sometimes the game is a stalemate due the fact the land-mass-choke-points (for example Venezuala<->Mexico, Greenland<->
British Island, Asia<->Australia) are blocked.
Then you need a different way to get to your opponent land. Ships are perfect for that role.
In that context BS-SS the way they are now are superior to any other ship, even the Transport ships.

What are the strong points of BS-SS?
- High Damage
- Splash (?)
- Range (vs ships)
- Range (vs land-units)
- Speed (all the ships have the same speed, is that intented?)
- High Armor
- Hitpoints
What are the weak points of BS-SS?
- Only Sea
- Cannot hit Mortar

My point being: don't remove the BS-SS, but either make it weaker or make an existing unit anti-BS-SS. (land-unit or sea-unit)

[neechi]

This topic was written in response to the topic in General Forum: SS-Like them or remove them.

Look at the whole picture, look at all units.

The thing that I just paid attention to:
All the ships are the same.
The only difference is Armor, hitpoints, and damage. (rate of fire?)
The role is the same: attack Ports, attack land-units at choke-points, and attack opponent fleet.

At land the most used units are Riflemen (range), Healers (short range/heal), Mortars (long-range) and Knights (melee).
At sea, all the ships are ranged, not sure if they all have the same range but still.
Why not specialize the ships? Why not give them different roles?

A - medium range
B - long range
C - melee
S - close-medium range
SS - medium range

The only problem at ship B is its long range might be able to attack land-units without counter-fire.
Anyway: think about roles, counter-roles and the context in which the units are being used.

[Fallen-God]

Some good points in their.
However I have to disagree on many of your 'facts'

A BS-SS costs 40 gold to build. With the same gold 8 x Gold-5 can be build, or 4 x Gold-10 ships, but I have not seen so far that either groups are able to kill 1 BS-SS. (the BS-SS often just runs away)

This is semi-true.
In actual fact, a group of smaller ships with equal gold value can overpower a single SS ship. However what you say about an SS being able to fight then flee without taking permanent damage is also very true.

I do not think SS ships should be reduced in power, but I can also see how someone might come to that conclusion.

[dechuri]

This topic was written in response to the topic in General Forum: SS-Like them or remove them.

Look at the whole picture, look at all units.

The thing that I just paid attention to:
All the ships are the same.
The only difference is Armor, hitpoints, and damage. (rate of fire?)
The role is the same: attack Ports, attack land-units at choke-points, and attack opponent fleet.

At land the most used units are Riflemen (range), Healers (short range/heal), Mortars (long-range) and Knights (melee).
At sea, all the ships are ranged, not sure if they all have the same range but still.
Why not specialize the ships? Why not give them different roles?

A - medium range
B - long range
C - melee
S - close-medium range
SS - medium range

The only problem at ship B is its long range might be able to attack land-units without counter-fire.
Anyway: think about roles, counter-roles and the context in which the units are being used.

I completely agree with these the battleships should be specialised but the long range may get anoying

[Knight925]

I would suggest an anti-SS ship with melee range that can therefore hardly attk ports
it should be gold-efficient to kill other ships with it but it should be bad to attk land

[Lt_Avata]

First I'ld like to say I like the map, the ranked system and the community around it.
Like everything made by humans it has its flaws and opinions differ.

Agreed.

What is the context of the question?

Of course a player likes BS-SS if he got a fleet of it (12+).
Of course other players don't like BS-SS when they have to counter-act it.

I love ss-ships, and whole heartedly beleive they are apart of the game mechanics. Yes, like everyone else, I can find being outnumbered in the sea annoying but there are ways around.

Why was the BS-SS implemented? Why are the other ships not used?
In most games I see nobody builds the Gold-5 ship. Sometimes the Gold-10 and up, but the Gold-5 ship is very weak.

A BS-SS costs 40 gold to build. With the same gold 8 x Gold-5 can be build, or 4 x Gold-10 ships, but I have not seen so far that either groups are able to kill 1 BS-SS. (the BS-SS often just runs away)
At Sea, there are Ports, but BS-SS can easily take the damage from the Ports.
Then again, there are no Ports in the middle of the Ocean's.

Now not true, I see the smaller ships used all the time early game. Especially players who wish to draw a rival players attenetion to the sea, while they prepare a land attack. Or even to temparily and cheaply halt the income. However, you mentioning of ports brings some lightbulbs to alighting...

What options are there to kill a BS-SS fleet? Another BS-SS fleet. There's no other option.
There is no other option to counter a BS-SS fleet. That is, in my opinion the flaw.
Even Tanks do not do enough damage to a BS-SS, not from range, not close-up.

Very true, and I would add mortars into that equation, not enough damage. Some sort of counter is needed.

My point being: make an existing unit anti-BS-SS. (land-unit or sea-unit)

Agreed.

Now heres my suggestion with much thought put into it so everyone is happy, and its an easy fix.

1st) Increase mortar/tank damage versus ships. This will satisfy the people who aren't top 50 in some cheap way to possibly fight off ss blockades to income. It also makes realistic sense. Obviously a few teams of mortars, or tanks, or the combo of both could tear up a battleship within range.

2nd) Make ports have the same or slightly less range as an ss ship, and have anti ship specialty damage OR give ports a faster rate of fire. This makes rushing a port with any ship a risk, especially if its even remotely defended. This will also make it so that a outnumbered ss fleet can stay inport and have a relativly fair chance if the player micros, uses adjusted mortars/tanks and uses roar. ( Realisticly a port has always been able to do some major damage to hostile ships, and even small fleets. Whether you look at the medeival times, or ww2 era. They have always had enough armament to at least give pause to an invader. Not so in the current version of risk )

3rd) Create a ship that is anti sea, and either can't hit land, or has a VERY short range. Most would suggest either a melee ship, a close range ship, or a suicide ship. Whether this is a new ship, or you make one of the existing ones adjusted for this role, is of course up to psyco and co.

Now you've done what? Made 3 very slight adjustments to increase land defence against ship blockades, at least at ports, and you have made an alternate counter to the ss ship, as every other unit in the game has a direct opposite. The most complicated part would be the added/adjusted unit.

Now the pros can keep their ss ships, and have some new fun jolly experiments to toy with. Now the newbies, and inbetweens can quit crying and moaning, and players like me benefit from both. Everyone is happy? Am I right or am I right? lol

[developper]

@Lt_Avata:

Just one Question: With the stronger Ports + Anti Ships Land units , isn't it going to a just Land fight like trans. Mode ? I mean you can take the Ports with Ss but thats too expensive with your idea or just too hard. I think players can build a Fortress on Land than and the game will take 3 Hours or more. In my Opinion SS just fasten the game and thats a good part. I don't like Games which lasts for 2 Hours!

[The_NightElfGod]

i think SS ships ruin the game i have had so many people jsut mass them suicide me! they are just a pain that ruins the game

[dechuri]

i think SS ships ruin the game i have had so many people jsut mass them suicide me! they are just a pain that ruins the game

it happends to every one so dont let it get to ya

[Fallen-God]

i think SS ships ruin the game i have had so many people jsut mass them suicide me! they are just a pain that ruins the game

Remember, what ruins the game for you makes the game for someone else who would have lost, but then got a shot at winning because of what happened.
One goes down, the others go up - just remember that

[Lt_Avata]

Lt_Avata:

Just one Question: With the stronger Ports + Anti Ships Land units , isn't it going to make it a land fight just like transport mode ? I mean you can take the ports with ss but thats too expensive with your idea or just too hard. I think players would build a fortress on land and the game would take 3 hours or more. In my opinion SS just speed up the game and thats good. I don't like games that last for 2 Hours!

I understand your arguements. I dont like having to spend more than 90 mins ona game either... Read on plz.

cheap way to possibly fight off ss blockades to income. It also makes realistic sense. Obviously a few teams of mortars, or tanks, or the combo of both could tear up a battleship within range.

 Note, this implies such small tweaking that it helps in single to double ship blockades. Not full invasions.

2nd) Make ports have the same or slightly less range as an ss ship, and have anti ship specialty damage OR give ports a faster rate of fire. This makes rushing a port with any ship a risk, especially if its even remotely defended. This will also make it so that a outnumbered ss fleet can stay inport and have a relativly fair chance if the player micros, uses adjusted mortars/tanks and uses roar. ( Realisticly a port has always been able to do some major damage to hostile ships, and even small fleets. Whether you look at the medeival times, or ww2 era. They have always had enough armament to at least give pause to an invader. Not so in the current version of risk )

 
Did you not read this paragraph? I didn't say make them super ship destroying fortresses...

If I have to reexplain... then here.

No, I am not saying make ports fortresses. I am not saying make it so mass mortars will beat mass ss ships. I am not saying make anti ss ships dirt cheap. Nothing that drastic.

I am just saying tweak the  ports damage or attack speed so its strong enough that ONE ss ship wont be able to take out a moderate defence with the port. If a player masses ss and clears ports and leaves a bunch there, make it so mortars/tanks can fight em off instead of mass suicideing rifleman or having to make up a temporary fleet, or taking up 5 mins of ur attention to properly clear one port with the tans/ship combo. And if a player just massed ss ships... then unless they let a player fill their coast with mortars/tanks, then just ss ships would still do what they do. Lets face it, theres always one player who can outproduce other players in the ss ship arena. Yeah you can mirco, yeah you can play it smart, but what if the deficit is still too much? These adjustments just allow SKILLED players to utilize what they have to help even the odds. This also makes it so games lean less to ss war endings. It CAN keep it even throughout the game.
These things should definately be done.

Now... as for anti ss ship sea units, I haven't developed this idea into its full light as of yet, but they would have to have a counter in turn, so for EXAMPLE, make one of the smaller ships have a ability that does massive damage to one ship, and can only be used once in awhile, or have a consequence such as self-destruction. Or mabe have the ability temporarily disable the ss ship. This way, smaller players have a VERY Temporary solution to fighting off ss skirmishes, but NOT all-out conflict. This could also greatly increase the need for micro skills via the sea. Yes, a player who can and does invest in a fleet of ss deserves to beat down players who ignored the balance, but there has to be a balance or the very least, the possiblity of a balance without having to meet fire with fire, toe to toe.

[Forest]Myk]

I love SS ships because:

They're an investment - if your SS is half destroyed you have an SS, if a group of 40 men is half destroyed you have 20 men.

They quickly destroy coastal defenses - I use men and SS side by side, resulting in very quick and bloody (for the enemy) battles for large expanses of land.

You can fool an opponent out of their reserves - I'll sometimes send a group of 4 or so SS to a rich (but poorer than me) enemy, they then make a few more than I sent, so I send just enough to have a few more, they make more and so do I, never allowing my fleet in the area to be more than just big enough to beat theirs. That way they rarely notice they've lost and I destroy their entire fleet with rarely a loss of a single ship.

Using an equal sized force and bridges you can close a front - We've all been in positions where you and a massive opponent have giant uncontrollable 60ish SS fleets, and if yours isn't large enough to ensure victory (for me if their fleet is bigger at all I do this just to be safe) just park your ships behind a portal, that way the front is closed to both of you, which works just fine if you don't need to move on it.

Admittedly SS are imbalanced in the sense you can't really beat them in large numbers with anything else; and if you're fighting someone with a fleet and you have say South America and 30 gold you won't fair well, but SS aren't IMO made to be stopped in those situations, in that kind of situation all you can really do is hold the most inland areas and pray for foreign relief. Also in that situation you'd lose to that cost in soldiers, perhaps not as quickly but you'd still fall, and that's where SS have their value, they aren't always game defining assets, but if you're invading someone and need to take them over ASAP bringing SS will crush them, perhaps not the nicest thing for those tiny nation'd players but a necessity for a growing power with other things to do.

If you're in the game defining massive war and SS are floating around taking your ports one per port, well that's even more reason to love them, the 10 free gold you get for pouring men onto the ship (destroying it in seconds) is very, very welcome in a time like that.



Edit:  In all honesty I figure the game would be almost perfectly balanced if we just cut out SS ships, having said that I think S ships are ugly, and should have a more "human" skin, like the SS has, also the vast, vast majority of "pro" players and players in high standing among the more influential community excel in SS combat, and therefore in all likelihood SS will never be removed from the game, and any editing to balance them would be seen as ruining a good thing.

[milk_milk]

Imo its ok if SS ships dominate sea, but please, let them die quicker vs hits from land. I wanna be able to counter them with mortars, rifles or whatever properly.

Im still voting for a sea system with counter units.... Maybe let SS ships be imba strong, but introduce some cheap suicide ships or so who just can kill masses of ss ships. Example: Costs 10 gold, deals 1k aoe dmg at sea, but is kinda fragile, if u dont micro u die. If u mass u die... simple

[Priestliano]

In all honesty, the only real reason I abhor the SS is because it has 650 range. A group of 2 or 3 shouldn't be able to demolish all land opposition. If they had maybe 300 range, riflemen would at least be able to shoot back, and would be more of a deterrent. This would also limit how many SS could be bombarding from sea at any one time, so they wouldnt be so absolutely devastating in large numbers. They would definantly still hurt, but they wouldnt be a gamebreaker for those little nations who simply dont have the funds to build one.

It really gets on my nerves when one guy builds an SS, then the smaller nation builds one to counter it, and the large nation just goes ahead and builds another ship. Little nations dont have any option for fighting these juggernauts of the sea.

I think with a major range reduction, they would still retain their destructibility, it would just limit the free kills they get, without contest.